Like, so many people, I have been involved in private conversations regarding the question of fundamental Islam. While conversation can be interesting, it is limiting in individual scope, such that I felt the need to expand the specific subject of cultism to an Internet discussion amongst my circle of friends, et al.
Thus, this Blog discussion desires your participation.
Obviously, there was, initially, a conversation regarding the development of ‘Daesh’ (A derogative term for the illegitimate organization called ISIL), that changed its focus into the question defining a cult.
One friend introduced a suggestion that the numbers of asylum seekers from the Middle East into Canada should be reduced to 10,000 per year and, then, balanced by increasing the numbers of Asians (Specifically from India and China) on the basis that Asian people had a historic antipathy towards Muslims. India’s democratic government allows Islam to flourish ... for the moment. China’s Marxist (Communist) government, otherwise described as “democratic with Chinese characteristics”, seems able ... at the moment, to avoid fundamental Islamic problems. In fact, in my opinion, there is no fundamental Islamic problem in China. The whole Muslim culture is a problem according to the government. It seems that many countries believe that China is correct on this question.
The subject became one of cultism by suggesting that China itself was a cult society. I had to disagree with this misrepresentation. China, as a Communist country, bans all forms of religion (Other than that mismanaged by the CCP) and this creates a belief, to the outsider, that religion thrives underground in small groups resembling cults. In my experience, most Chinese people are very spiritual, almost naive (As may be observed at any Buddhist temple) but not religious in a Christian sense.
Thus, there was a statement that Islam is a cult, to which I disagree. ‘Daesh’ on the other hand, could be described as a cult, because of its religious veneration, sinister practices, misplaced admiration for a particular person, and being fashionable among a particular section of society.
Now, therefore, the question extends to Christianity, is it also a cult? I believe that, even though there are small cults within Christianity, it is a religion ... Islam too. On the other hand, Buddhism would, more accurately, be defined a cult (It does not believe in superhuman controlling powers).
Should cults be banned? Are we all religious in one way or another, or simply spiritual? Is it a matter of defining terms?
Please join the conversation.
Why do you think China hasn't had Islamic problems?
ReplyDeleteIt seems that I’ve touched nerve.
DeleteAnnie, please read my post again. I didn’t say that China doesn’t have any Islamic problems.
But your assumptions are based on CCP propaganda and, probably, reading the Peoples Daily newspaper too much, without offering the benefit of doubt.
I was implying, as so many people do, that the ethnic Muslim people who live in the area called Xinjiang are not Chinese and have never been Chinese. Their culture, physical appearance, language, writing, religion, and history, is that of Kazakhstan and Mongolia. They speak Mandarin as their second language because it has been forced on them by the CCP. Yes, they have a problem ... but not China.
I am bound to point out the similarity to Tibetan people who, also, are not Chinese. Their culture, physical appearance, language, writing, religion, and history, is that of the Himalayan peoples of Nepal, Bhutan, and Northern India. They, too, speak Mandarin as their second language because, for the first time in millions of years there is an extraordinary forced influx of Han Chinese.
Therefore, contrary to popular CCP opinion, there may be an islamic problem, but it has been created by an invasion of Han Chinese.
If you take away someones culture, language, and religion, then, they will have nothing. When you take away those things, expect ... trouble.
Annie, it surprises me, considering the availability of BALANCED information in Australia for you to do research, that you can’t see what’s going on. On another day soon, the subject could be the South China Sea that, also, is not Chinese.
Bernie has denied that Islam is a cult. Maybe so, let’s look for the truth. First, let’s define the English word ‘cult’ since we are debating in the English language. On-line dictionaries generally define it in similar terms, for example;
ReplyDeleteCult- a noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
Definitions 1 through 5 may easily apply to Islam.
Another on-line dictionary defined cult as;
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
These definitions may apply to any organization or group but I suggest they include Islam as we know it. They bring to mind the cool-aid at Jonestown for older readers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
What characteristics of Islam are cultic? I found the following list on another site.
1. A Muslim who quits Islam has to worry about being killed by another Muslim.
This is the first rule of Islam. This is why so few Muslims quit the faith. This simple fact — alone — makes Islam a cult. It is hard to understate the significance of this cold hard fact about Islam.
2. Muslims are encouraged to commit violence in the name of Islam.
Muslim theological documents — the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sunna — are filled with statements which encourage devout Muslims to commit violence in the name of Islam.
Here are just a few as extracted from the Qur’anic verse and restated in simple words:
• Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
• Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood (9:123)
• When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
3. Islam does not allow criticism or change.
• Islam considers anyone who criticizes or tries to change Islam guilty of blasphemy. And blasphemy is a capital crime under Sharia law. As a result any Muslim who even critiques or attempts to change Islam has to worry about being murdered by some devout Muslim.
4. Muslim theology teaches hatred of non-Muslims.
• This practice is widespread within Islamic society. It has been documented by numerous authors literally thousands of time.
Some people argue that Islam is a religion not a cult. The following paragraph was taken from comment on a paper on the subject. http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/01/five-reasons-why-islam-is-a-cult/
”Islam has everything needed to be considered a religion, not a cult, but it is neither. It is a system of laws. Its leaders do not call it a religion, but a complete way of life, a deen (or din). Its leaders are accountable to that law and to Allah/Muhammad, because they believe they are accountable to it. It has a god of convenience, for loyalty, to keep the troops in line with fear and promises of a reward after death in Paradise (which clearly works well), but Islam’s goal is world conquest, not something as small as cult-like worship. It certainly doesn’t intend to alter the Bible and teach another version of it; Islam seeks to do away with all other religions completely.”
Continued on next comment.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBernie has denied that Islam is a cult. Maybe so, let’s look for the truth. First, let’s define the English word ‘cult’ since we are debating in the English language. On-line dictionaries generally define it in similar terms, for example;
ReplyDeleteCult- a noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
Definitions 1 through 5 may easily apply to Islam.
Another on-line dictionary defined cult as;
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
These definitions may apply to any organization or group but I suggest they include Islam as we know it. They bring to mind the cool-aid at Jonestown for older readers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
What characteristics of Islam are cultic? I found the following list on another site.
1. A Muslim who quits Islam has to worry about being killed by another Muslim.
This is the first rule of Islam. This is why so few Muslims quit the faith. This simple fact — alone — makes Islam a cult. It is hard to understate the significance of this cold hard fact about Islam.
2. Muslims are encouraged to commit violence in the name of Islam.
Muslim theological documents — the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sunna — are filled with statements which encourage devout Muslims to commit violence in the name of Islam.
Here are just a few as extracted from the Qur’anic verse and restated in simple words:
• Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
• Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood (9:123)
• When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
3. Islam does not allow criticism or change.
• Islam considers anyone who criticizes or tries to change Islam guilty of blasphemy. And blasphemy is a capital crime under Sharia law. As a result any Muslim who even critiques or attempts to change Islam has to worry about being murdered by some devout Muslim.
4. Muslim theology teaches hatred of non-Muslims.
• This practice is widespread within Islamic society. It has been documented by numerous authors literally thousands of time.
Some people argue that Islam is a religion not a cult. The following paragraph was taken from comment on a paper on the subject. http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/01/five-reasons-why-islam-is-a-cult/
”Islam has everything needed to be considered a religion, not a cult, but it is neither. It is a system of laws. Its leaders do not call it a religion, but a complete way of life, a deen (or din). Its leaders are accountable to that law and to Allah/Muhammad, because they believe they are accountable to it. It has a god of convenience, for loyalty, to keep the troops in line with fear and promises of a reward after death in Paradise (which clearly works well), but Islam’s goal is world conquest, not something as small as cult-like worship. It certainly doesn’t intend to alter the Bible and teach another version of it; Islam seeks to do away with all other religions completely.”
Continued ....
A few verses copied from my translation of the Qur’an.
ReplyDeleteSurah 47-4 Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks; at length when you have thoroughly subdued them bind a bond firmly on them, --- etc thus permitting ransom or death, whatever.
Surah 9 -29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and his Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of the Truth even if they are of the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Another statement in the Qur’an clearly states that Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.
Surah 3:28 Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than Believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:
An imam speaking on the radio this morning (Nov. 22/15) said that was not a truth that Muslims cannot have friends but the verse must be taken in context. The adjacent verses do not modify the statement. It seems to be clearly stated but maybe the translation for Arabic is faulty.
The Qur’an is full of such statements describing what to do about non-Muslims.
A Global Caliphate cannot be achieved unless Muslims follow the Qur’an as robots or cultists and take control of the world in the name of Islam. A thinking Muslim, that is one who questions the fundamentals of Islam, and would refrain from the Jihad must fear for his own life. He will be called an apostate and subject to a death fatwa as was Salmon Rushdie.
Ok, Bernie, Islam is not a cult, it is a disease and a danger to free people like us.
DeleteJohn; You have exceeded all sensible requirements for welcome comments. I wonder if your last sentence is a fair summary, i.e., “it is a disease ....”.
By comparison, I will conclude in true minimalist fashion.
It was very remise of me to write my original post without referring to my writers bible, the O.E.D. Surprisingly, it is quite brief in its definition. (1) religion; the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God (There are other definitions but, this one, stands out). (2) cult; a system of religious worship, esp. as expressed in ritual (Equally, there are other definitions).
Cunningly, the editors of the O.E.D. do not wish to enter into a never-ending discussion.
At this point, I will end with a realization that it’s all a matter of definition, as most editorial boards will know.
Nevertheless, we welcome further discussion, but request that the subject does not deal with Chinese Communism (Would be unsuccessful as Google is banned in China).
Civilization can withstand destructive Islam as ISIS (or whatever name is used), Al Qaeda, Al Shibob and all the tentacles of the beast but it cannot absorb the invasive hordes flooding into Europe to undermine the traditions of freedom, individualism and happiness that have been won over the centuries. When the invaders overwhelm the native species Sharia will be posted on city gates, the lights will dim ending a great cultural experiment.
ReplyDeleteI am on record stating quite simply (As simply as I could) that multiculturalism will not work.
Delete